The State of the Smart Kitchen

Companies love sticking chips in everything. That’s how you get a feast of connected kitchen tech: app-controlled Instant Pots, $400 touchscreen toasters, and Wi-Fi enabled fridges that let you check Twitter while you wait for some crushed ice. It’s all very high tech and modern, but does any of it actually help you cook—or live—any better? This content can also be viewed on the site it originates from.

This week on Gadget Lab, WIRED contributor and food writer Joe Ray joins us to talk about how to navigate the smart kitchen and whether any of these connected gadgets will really improve your cuisine or bring you happiness. Read Joe Ray’s many reviews of smart kitchen tech . Joe recommends the cookbook I Dream of Dinner (so You Don’t Have To) by Ali Slagle.

Lauren recommends pasta e ceci . Mike recommends the Oxo Brew Precision Scale With Timer . Joe Ray can be found on Twitter @ joe_diner .

Lauren Goode is @ LaurenGoode . Michael Calore is @ snackfight . Bling the main hotline at @ GadgetLab .

The show is produced by Boone Ashworth (@ booneashworth ). Our theme music is by Solar Keys . You can always listen to this week’s podcast through the audio player on this page, but if you want to subscribe for free to get every episode, here’s how: If you’re on an iPhone or iPad, open the app called Podcasts, or just tap this link .

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And in case you really need it, here’s the RSS feed . Michael Calore : Lauren. Lauren Goode : Mike.

Michael Calore : Lauren, what is your go-to kitchen gadget? Like the one piece of equipment in the kitchen that you can’t live without? Lauren Goode : I have two and neither are internet connected. Michael Calore : That’s fine. What are they? Lauren Goode : One is a $7 Swiss knife.

Cutting knife, not an army knife. Michael Calore : Sure. Lauren Goode : It’s so sharp, it’ll take your fingertip off in an instant.

Michael Calore : That’s what you want. Lauren Goode : It’s great. And the second is a box cutter, which I think was also $7 from Amazon.

Michael Calore : A box cutter? Lauren Goode : Yeah. I don’t use it for cooking, I just use it for opening boxes. Why is everyone laughing? Joe Ray : That’s not for the kitchen.

Lauren Goode : You can put it anywhere. You can have a box cutter anywhere. Michael Calore : Oh, boy.

Lauren Goode : What’s yours? Michael Calore : Probably my electric kettle, because it’s what I use to make coffee and nothing happens if I can’t make coffee. Lauren Goode : That’s actually a really good one. Michael Calore : All right, well, we’ll talk more about this on today’s show.

Lauren Goode : And box cutters. [Gadget Lab intro theme music plays] Michael Calore : Hi everyone. Welcome to Gadget Lab.

I am Michael Calore, I’m a senior editor at WIRED. Lauren Goode : And I’m Lauren Goode. I eat salads for breakfast and use box cutters in the kitchen.

I’m a senior writer at WIRED. Michael Calore : We’re also joined this week by food writer and frequent contributor to WIRED, Joe Ray. Joe, welcome to the show.

Joe Ray : Thank you. Lauren Goode : Hello Joe. Joe Ray : Hello.

Michael Calore : We are very excited to have you as a guest, Joe. First of all, because this is your first time on the show, you’re in town, it worked out, so we’re happy to have you. But also because the area that you cover for us, the smart kitchen, connected cooking, kitchen technology in general, cookbooks, is very central to our lives.

We all cook, we all use our kitchens. We wish they could be better. We wish we could be better in our kitchens.

It feels like one of the most important areas of coverage that we do, more important than iPhones and Pixel Phones and ebikes and Kindles, any day of the week. Wouldn’t you agree? Joe Ray : Got to feed yourself. Michael Calore : Man’s gotta eat.

Well, let’s start with a broad look at the space. One of the things that you cover a lot is what we call the smart kitchen. So when we talk about the smart kitchen, what are we talking about? Joe Ray : I would say there is a pretty vague definition of that, but we could probably boil it down to it being, modern cooking appliances that have a bit of computer help.

Maybe you have an app on your phone or maybe they have a screen right on them, or some combination of all of those, all in the effort to help make you a better cook. Michael Calore : Does it usually work? Lauren Goode : Yeah, it doesn’t work? Joe Ray : Not very well. No.

Lauren Goode : So, if you weren’t a good cook before, it’s not going to be like the Wi-Fi connected sous vide wand that’s going to turn you into one. Joe Ray : I try to be optimistic about this stuff, but I don’t think it is as good as everyone wants it to be. I feel like somebody with some money got in a room and wanted to make an app and wanted to connect their sous vide wand or their oven, or there’s something to it and didn’t really realize that we have already been cooking for millennia.

We’ve been cooking forever. And if you think about cooking on a graph, like, cooking since the beginning, since cavemen. The line slowly, steadily moves up.

We go through amazing cuisines, we go through Indian cuisine, we go through French cuisine. This has been happening for centuries. There’s all this slow and steady progress that we make and now we get to the modern day.

And kitchen appliance manufacturers would have you believe that by plugging an app onto your phone, suddenly that slow and steady line is going to go vertical. And it does not. Lauren Goode : Put tech aside for a moment, what actually makes a good cook? Joe Ray : A good cook is, I would say that is practice, interest, and a decent set of very basic tools.

So you’ve got a nice knife, maybe not a box cutter, but a nice knife. Lauren Goode : That’s why my potatoes are so hard to cut. Joe Ray : You’ve got a cutting board.

You’ve got a cutting board, you’ve got an oven, you’ve got a pan you use that you like, that you trust, that works pretty well and it’s stuff that you feel comfortable with. And then maybe a good cookbook or a good cooking show to inspire you a little bit. But you don’t need a lot more than that.

You just need to practice. You need to figure out how to cut an onion. You need to figure out how to make spaghetti sauce.

But tech doesn’t really have to figure into that. It can, and sometimes it works really well, but most of the time it doesn’t. Michael Calore : I’ve been racking my brain trying to think of the places where technology has actually enhanced the experience in the kitchen.

And obviously there are many that seem obvious, but if you look at just where we were 10 years ago or not, induction cooking is a big one. This is the style of cooktop where it uses magnetic energy to heat things inside of conductive pans. Joe Ray : Yes.

Michael Calore : Kettles that let you dial exact temperatures. Super cool. So I want my hot water to be exactly 205 degrees.

I have a kettle that can do that. 10 years ago it was just, boil the water and then let it sit for three minutes. Much better.

Lauren Goode : And timing is such an important part of cooking too. So some of the technology we’ve seen introduced in recent years, like smart displays or Amazon Echo speakers, they’re great for setting timers. Michael Calore : Yeah.

Lauren Goode : I swear that’s the only thing that I use them for, for the most part. Because I don’t have kids, so I’m not like, play Baby Shark on repeat. I’m really just like, set another timer for the cooking.

Joe Ray : Yeah. One of the most recent favorite gadgets I got was a plexiglass holder for my cookbooks. I’m sorry.

But that out does a lot of what I find on apps. But on the flip side, a great guided cooking app, let’s go back to the idea of chopping up an onion. It might run you through with a couple little videos, as you do the menu, you might be able to pop out and say, here’s how to chop an onion.

And they’ll just show somebody’s hands, chop, chop, chop. You do this, you do that, and you’re done. And then you can pop back into the recipe and you’ll be fine and you continue down the recipe.

And if you do all that, it can be very helpful. But the problem with that is that’s a bucket load of money for a company to invest. So if you’re a pan company, you make pans that already cost a lot of money, you need to market those pans.

That also costs a lot of money. But if you want to do a smart pan, and it is something that is specific, especially like, a sous vide is even a better example, where maybe somebody isn’t used to that style of cooking, then as the manufacturer, you’re forced to train the people in how to use the product and get the most out of it. But then you’ve got to do all these little videos.

You do the little side video of a guy chopping an onion. You need to do a video of how to chop up a chicken. You need to do a video of how to cut a zucchini.

And all of that takes mammoth, not only are you doing a recipe, but you have to do all these little side projects to make it all smooth and helpful. And that is a chef or chefs, that is an app designer or designers, it’s a design team, it’s app recipe writers, who are not necessarily the chefs. The list goes on and on and that’s a lot of salaries.

Lauren Goode : So are you saying that’s what makes some of the smart kitchen products we see today so expensive? Or are you saying that ultimately you question if it’s worth it? Joe Ray : I’m saying I think that’s why they peter out or they half-ass it and it does not teach their own customer how to use their product well. And so it ends up in the back of a cupboard. Lauren Goode : Yeah, I have to say in my last, no, actually not my last apartment.

Two apartments ago, when I was living with a partner, we had a lot of kitchen stuff. I did not keep a lot of it. I was fine with that.

I basically was like, you keep the KitchenAid stands and I’ll take the cat. And I was very happy with that arrangement. I took the espresso maker, which was a gift to me.

And that actually is probably my favorite kitchen item above the knives and the— Michael Calore : The box cutter? Lauren Goode : The infamous box cutter. Yeah, anyway, I’m never going to live that one down. But we had a sous vide wand, we did have an Alexa that we used for timers.

I just remember there being a lot of stuff and finding a lot of it to feel like a novelty and eventually just ditching it and being like, I don’t actually need to make a soft boiled egg over three hours. I just don’t. Michael Calore : Oh, the 60C egg? Lauren Goode : Yeah, or whatever that is.

Now there are some— Joe Ray : It’s a delight. Lauren Goode : There’s like this delta that exists between what Joe is describing, which is just the really simple, amazing tools, and then the really, really expensive gear. But it seems like there’s also an in-between category of stuff like a rice cooker, Mike, that you tell me about all the time.

You’re like, you need to get a rice cooker. Michael Calore : I do. Everybody needs a good rice cooker.

Lauren Goode : And that’s not necessarily smart, or is it? Michael Calore : It is in a sense that, it has sensors in it, right? So it senses when the steam is getting lower so it knows that there’s less moisture that needs evaporating and it has timed cooking. It’ll create a soft landing into perfect rice, instead of just duly turning off after a certain amount of time. It has different settings so it knows what kind of grain you’re putting in there.

It has different settings for oatmeal and wild rice and long grain, short grain, sushi rice. So yeah, very smart. Compared to the last rice cooker I had, which just had on and warm and that was it.

It’s a marvel. Lauren Goode : But you don’t have an app for it. Michael Calore : No, it does not have an app.

Lauren Goode : There are no videos being produced, like the kind that Joe described. Michael Calore : Correct. Lauren Goode : OK.

You just put the rice in. Michael Calore : Yeah, but you also, you have to know how to make rice. To your point, Joe.

You got to know how to wash it. You got to know how to rinse it properly. You have to know to let it sit for 30 minutes before you start cooking, because it turns out better that way.

Joe Ray : I am nowhere near as much of a rice cooker purist as Mike is, but it is also probably my favorite single use appliance in my kitchen. I don’t necessarily always rinse my rice. I should die, I know.

It depends. We do a lot of brown rice at home, but you put rice in a cup, you put water in the pot up to the one cup line, it just tells you how much to put in. You put it in, you close the lid, you press “Cooking,” the cooking button, and it sings a little song to you.

And then you go away and you do other things. And when you come back, your rice is done. Because it’s saying another song.

That is very smart to me. That is my definition of smart, which is not what an app manufacturer would want you to think of. Lauren Goode : And it’s simple.

Simple is better. Michael Calore : It really is. We should talk more about it.

But first, let’s take a break and we’ll come right back. [Break] Michael Calore : All right. Welcome back.

We are here with Joe Ray, a contributing writer at WIRED who covers kitchen technology, food, cookbooks, all things culinary for us. One of the things that I have noticed about the smart kitchen is that when you have a device that has an app, it’s controlled through the app, you look at that device and it conspicuously lacks buttons that you can touch. I know that this is something that you— Joe Ray : Can I swear on this podcast? Michael Calore : You absolutely can.

Lauren Goode : Yes, we welcome it. Joe Ray : I think this is the appropriate time. Lauren Goode : We encourage it, in fact.

Joe Ray : Oh goddamn. It’s as if somebody saw some sort of super clean monolith somewhere and wanted their devices to look like that. One of the most efficient cooking devices I can think of is my mother-in-law’s old oven, which has a light switch on it.

You want the light switch to go on, you hit the switch, the light comes on, you want the light to go off in the oven, you hit the switch, the light goes off. When you have this sort of no button appliance that connects to an app, how’s your Bluetooth connection? Is it connected? Is it going to drop? Because it probably will drop. Michael Calore : Where did I put the app? Joe Ray : Where did I put the app? Oh hey, my mom just texted.

Oh hey Lauren. Lauren just texted too. What’s going on? I feel like if you route people through an app, you are just inviting them to get distracted.

And to me what cooking is about, at the most romantic sense, is, it’s time to be together. You and I are going to have dinner sometime. We are going to maybe have a glass of wine.

We are going to talk about what we’re going to eat, we’re going to talk about our days. It’s a little bit of time, and whether or not that’s on a Tuesday night and we really don’t have much time, or it’s an all day affair, that’s fantastic. And as soon as you put my phone between me and you, I’m getting angry just talking about this, it’s a barrier.

No one’s giving you their full attention if I put up an app, if I hold up my phone, if I get distracted by my phone. I’m here to be with you and I’m here to be with you. I’m pointing at these guys right now.

And if you lift up your phone, you’re going away a bit. And that drives me crazy. Lauren Goode : Especially when you think about so many kitchens in living spaces being designed with that kind of communal experience in mind.

I always like to joke that when you have friends over for a gathering or a party and you’re like, Oh, let’s go hang out over here. Everyone comes to the kitchen. Joe Ray : Yeah.

It’s the place. Lauren Goode : That’s the only place people want to congregate. And so if you’re standing there and you’re cooking for two friends or 12 friends, to have your face in your phone, it feels like it’s intrusive.

Joe Ray : It drives me crazy. Lauren Goode : Yes. Joe Ray : Yeah.

And there are times when you want to, you’ve got to concentrate in the kitchen. If you’re carving the Thanksgiving turkey, I will walk the bird around the room and then I tell everyone to leave. In fact, I have an apron that says, Ask me about your hovering.

But that— Michael Calore : That’s good. Lauren Goode : I love that. Michael Calore : That’s really good.

That’s good. Lauren Goode : I have one that says, we danced around the kitchen in the refrigerator light. Michael Calore : There you go.

Lauren Goode : I’m just kidding. That’s a Taylor Swift song. But Taylor Swift sings about this.

People hang out in the kitchen. Joe Ray : Right. Michael Calore : Yeah.

Joe Ray : Does she sing about having an app in the kitchen? Lauren Goode : I think not. Joe Ray : I don’t think so. Lauren Goode : No, I don’t think so.

Joe Ray : Because it’s not as much fun. Lauren Goode : No, it’s not romantic. Michael Calore : So in the years that you’ve been writing for us, you’ve hit a lot of trends.

There was the sous vide trend, there is the air fryer trend. There is the multi-cooker/instant pot trend. What’s next? Joe Ray : I was thinking about this because I knew this question was coming and I think we’re in a bit of a shakeout right now.

I think that maybe there are enough frustrated people out there who are not super happy about the way the smart kitchen is going that I think manufacturers are not sure what to do. So I think I’m starting to see things tail off a bit. We’re seeing less smart products come out.

Lauren Goode : Are they still going to be internet connected? Even if that’s not the primary feature. Is it something that’s just like the way that 3D became just a part of TVs, but they stopped being marketed like that? Joe Ray : I think, and this brings me back to an idea I was thinking about before is, if it’s a thing that is a perk, you can do it without danger. So to explain that a little, one product that does that really well is the ThermoWorks Smoke.

So it is a thermometer that’s mostly for your grill and it has readouts. So I think you can stick a couple probes in your cooking, you can get the internal temperature of the grill, you can get the internal temperature of the thing you’re cooking, and you get everything you need on the readout that’s right in front of you. If you pull out the phone and pull up the app, you can chart how your cooking is going.

So you can see how the heat is going up, you can make sure it is staying level, so you’re cooking at a nice level temperature and you can know when your food is done. That’s great because that’s an add-on. And so when you have something like that, there’s nothing to ding you for.

You have everything you need without firing up your app. But if you want a little more, great, you’ve got it. And if you don’t need it or you don’t want it, you don’t have to fire it up.

And I think that’s the best way to go for a connected appliance. Michael Calore : Solid advice. Joe Ray : Thank you.

Lauren Goode : What would you say is on the other end of that spectrum? A big kitchen appliance? A fridge, a dishwasher, a stove, a microwave, something cooktop that has gone overboard, is just too smart, is completely unnecessary. Joe Ray : The idea of a connected hub via your refrigerator. Lauren Goode : The screen that you’re actually supposed to touch.

Joe Ray : Yes. Yes. That you’re supposed to control all the things in your home from? Lauren Goode : Yes.

Joe Ray : Horrible. Lauren Goode : Oh my god. I remember seeing a Samsung fridge like a decade ago at the Samsung Experience Store in New York City, and they were like, Look, you can tweet from your fridge.

And I was like, why would I want to do that? Joe Ray : Hell no. Michael Calore : I saw that and I went, “Hmmm. ” Lauren Goode : Oh.

Michael Calore : No, I’m just kidding. I’m just kidding. Joe Ray : In terms of smart fridge innovations, there was one a few years ago that had glass windows, which you’re taking a risk there, because if your fridge is a mess, your fridge is a mess and it’s on display.

And if you knock on the window, I think twice, it lights up the fridge. Michael Calore : Yeah. Joe Ray : That’s smart.

Michael Calore : Yeah. Joe Ray : But having some extra hub, another screen, another way to distract yourself in the middle of your kitchen, that’s going to eventually get old and maybe be outdated before your refrigerator is old. We don’t need that.

Lauren Goode : Right. It’s like, oh, you’re running low on milk, because our sensors tell you that. And so you should do some, bloop, bloop, bloop on the display here and add milk to your grocery list.

And I’m like, yep, and I can just pull up Apple Notes on my phone and do the same thing and then it’s with me when I go to the grocery store. Joe Ray : No bloops necessary. Lauren Goode : No, no bloops.

No. And then the repairs, we’re not even getting into the repairs. Michael Calore : Yeah, it is true that a generation ago, you could buy an oven and you would still be using that oven, whereas if you went out and bought a new oven now, maybe it’ll last 10 years.

Lauren Goode : Talk about your dishwasher. Michael Calore : Yes. I have this Danby, roll-it-around dishwasher that I bought 17 years ago, and it still works great.

Meanwhile, I have recommended it to friends who’ve come over and marveled at it and said, oh, look at that thing. I said, yeah, you should totally get one. They take a picture of the label on the back that shows the model number.

They order it and it dies within five years. So it’s really hit or miss I think. I don’t think it has anything to do with Danby’s slow slide into crappy manufacturing, but I think it’s a crapshoot.

Things may not last as long as they used to. And I think a big reason why a lot of smart things don’t last as long as they used to is because of the chips. It has a printed circuit board in it, that has a limited lifespan.

The app may not be supported, the company may go out of business and may get swallowed up by somebody else and now all of a sudden the app changes and it doesn’t work with the thing that you bought three years ago. Lauren Goode : Yep. Michael Calore : I always tell people just to buy the dumbest thing can.

Joe Ray : My favorite button on my microwave is the “Add 30 seconds” button. Michael Calore : Oh yeah. Joe Ray : You can do everything with that.

You can start your microwave, you can add 30 more seconds. You’re not doing complicated stuff in there. And you don’t need to add complication to it.

Michael Calore : Yes. The “add 30 seconds to this” is the best button in the whole kitchen. It’s on the microwave, it’s on the Breville toaster.

Yeah. The “a bit more” button on the Breville toaster. Lauren Goode : Yeah.

Michael Calore : Oh, I love that. Lauren Goode : They should do an “add 46 seconds” button. Michael Calore : Why 46? Lauren Goode : I always punch in 46, like a minute 46.

Michael Calore : Because of the way that the four and the six are aligned on the keypad? Lauren Goode : No, because I don’t like 45. Joe Ray : What about 44? Michael Calore : Yeah. I always do 44.

Lauren Goode : 44 was great. You might recall. Joe Ray : Oh.

Lauren Goode : 45 is the problem. Michael Calore : I’m not following this. Joe Ray : We’re talking in code.

Lauren Goode : Yes, we are speaking in code now. Some people will get it. Michael Calore : All right, well it’s time to take another break and then when we come back we’ll do our recommendations.

[Break] Michael Calore : All right, this is the third and final part of our show where we go around the room and we each recommend a thing that our listeners might enjoy. Joe, you are our guest, so you get to go first. What’s your recommendation? Joe Ray : Thank you, Mike.

My recommendation. Michael Calore : You’re so welcome. Joe Ray : My recommendation is Ali Slagle’s cookbook, I Dream of Dinner (so You Don’t Have To) .

And the premise on this one is that it’s recipes that take less than 45 minutes and use less than 10 ingredients. But unlike something you might pick up as an impulse purchase on Amazon, which just isn’t going to do it for you, this one is smart, it is creative, it is like Ottolenghi-style recipes that you can do in a short amount of time. And when I wrote about this in my last cookbook roundup, I wanted to write so much more about this cookbook and I thought this would be the perfect time to sing its praises.

Michael Calore : Nice. Lauren Goode : Sounds great. Michael Calore : What is the ideal, the archetypal 45-minute-or-less recipe? Joe Ray : My favorite recipe was her polenta and lime butter that gets a fresh boost with pepitas, cumin, and lime.

And then as a fun trick, you take an ear of fresh corn and you grate it on a box grater and then you stir that in at the end. And it is simple, it is fast, and it tastes five times more creative and better than anything I would’ve come up with on a Tuesday night. Michael Calore : Wow.

Joe Ray : Yeah. Lauren Goode : That sounds so delicious. Joe Ray : It’s really good.

It’s a cookbook that I will keep and I see a lot of cookbooks that I don’t want to keep. And it’s a cookbook that I would hand off to my sister, who is one of the most discerning natural chefs I’ve ever met. And she has no patience for a bad cookbook, and I think she would really enjoy this one.

And that’s a really good find for me. Michael Calore : That sounds awesome. Lauren Goode : Shoutout to Joe’s sister.

Michael Calore : Yeah. Joe Ray : Hi Gina. Lauren Goode : Discerning chef.

Michael Calore : Joe, thank you for yet another awesome cookbook recommendation. Lauren, what is your recommendation? Lauren Goode : My recommendation is, I’m going to put you on the spot, Snack. Michael Calore : OK.

Lauren Goode : Mike is an excellent chef. Joe Ray : So I hear. Lauren Goode : He’s really, really good.

When I first moved into my current apartment, this was about a year ago, Mike and Boone happened to be over one night and things were going late. We were getting hungry, and I said, maybe we should just order some food. And Mike said, “No, no, no … Let me just see what you have in the kitchen here.

” Rummaged around, made us this delicious vegan—because he is a vegan, for those of you who listen to this podcast know this, because we talk about it all the time. Joe Ray : Mushroom man. Michael Calore : No, we don’t.

Lauren Goode : Right? No, we do. Michael Calore : Anyway, please go on. Lauren Goode : We talk about it all the time.

Michael Calore : Continue to sing my praises. Lauren Goode : Mike’s like, please go on. Michael Calore : Please go on.

Lauren Goode : Please continue. He made this delicious spaghetti with capers and red pepper flakes. And what else was in it? Onion.

Michael Calore : Tomato. Lauren Goode : Well, tomato. Yeah.

And then I think maybe we had some vegan cheese on it. I definitely had regular parmesan. It was so delicious.

Boone, do you remember this? Yeah. Boone is nodding. He’s nodding.

Not audibly. And then I went to your house and enjoyed Thanksgiving last year with you and your wife Hilery. And you guys made a vegan “sidesgiving,” which was absolutely delicious.

And I ate the leftovers for about three days afterwards. Michael Calore : Me too. Joe Ray : The best part of Thanksgiving.

Lauren Goode : So good. The absolute best part. There was this cannellini bean dish.

Michael Calore : Oh yes. Lauren Goode : And the stuffing was fantastic. And then Mike recently came over to my place and we were doing some batch cooking for a friend of ours who needed some food and made this pasta fagioli.

Am I saying that correctly? Michael Calore : Yeah. Or— Joe Ray : Fagioli. Michael Calore : No, it was pasta fazool .

Joe Ray : Oh. Lauren Goode : It’s pasta fazool. Michael Calore : Yeah.

The beans were chickpeas. Lauren Goode : But you say fazool right? Michael Calore : Si, certo. Lauren Goode : OK.

Gosh, my Italian great-grandmother would be very disappointed in me right now. Didn’t speak a word of English. But yeah, it’s fantastic.

And I think it’s a New York Times recipe? Michael Calore : It is, yeah. It’s adapted. Adapted.

Lauren Goode : It’s so, so good. So I’ve made it like five times since then. And then, this also includes red pepper flakes and you can be a little bit generous with them.

The first batch you made, Mike, there was a lot of spice in it. And so then I froze it and by the time I opened it up and heated it up again, the flavors had really settled and it was, wow. Just mind blown.

Michael Calore : Is this your recommendation, this recipe? Lauren Goode : I don’t even know what my recommendation is because now, I just, I’m so hungry. I just want to go eat. Joe Ray : Maybe it’s to have Mike come over and cook for you.

Lauren Goode : Yes. It’s actually that Snackfight here. Michael Calore is, as his name might suggest, is an excellent cook.

Michael Calore : Oh, well thank you. I’m flattered. Lauren Goode : You’re welcome.

No, you’re welcome. But check out the pasta, will link to the pasta e ceci recipe in the notes this week. Because I think that’s actually my recommendation.

Michael Calore : Nice. Lauren Goode : I’ve really enjoyed it. Michael Calore : I’ve made that probably 50 times.

Lauren Goode : It’s that good. Michael Calore : Yeah. Lauren Goode : Yeah.

It’s really, really good. And sometimes, because I like to mix things up for breakfast as people know, I will have it for breakfast with a little egg on top. Michael Calore : Nice.

Lauren Goode : It’s really good. Joe Ray : The ability to riff like that in a kitchen, to look in a fridge and come up with a dish off the cuff is a secret, genuine skill. Every time I cook, I use a recipe because I can’t do that.

Michael Calore : Well you were saying it’s practice. Joe Ray : It’s practice. Michael Calore : It’s just having confidence that like, oh, I bet these things would go together.

And also, I must say, a can of tomatoes, crushed tomatoes, turning that into a sauce is pretty simple. Joe Ray : Goes a long way. Lauren Goode : But the tomatoes matter, though.

Michael Calore : They do. Lauren Goode : What kind of tomatoes you use, and some people like the more sweet, and yeah. I was just saying to Mike before we started taping this that I actually, I’m feeling this very strong desire right now to go move to the woods and not have anything on my social calendar for about three months because I haven’t cooked in a while.

And I really miss cooking. I want to be alone. Just cook.

That’s it. That’s my recommendation. Michael Calore : That’s admirable.

Lauren Goode : Yeah. How about you, Mike? What’s your recommendation? Michael Calore : Surprise, surprise. Mine is also food related, although it’s coffee related.

So I have a very simple scale that I use for weighing out my coffee beans and then use for weighing out the water. And I’ve had this thing for over a decade. It’s by a company called Oxo and it died recently.

Joe Ray : Oh no. Michael Calore : Yeah, the batteries leeched and it ruined the battery cavity and now it just doesn’t work anymore. So I had to buy a new scale.

A kitchen scale is one of those things you must have, I think, if you’re serious about making bread or making things that are complicated that have a lot of ingredients. It’s really, really good to just have a scale. I use a scale for coffee every day.

So I bought a coffee specific scale. Same brand. I’m a total loyalist.

Total homer. It’s Oxo Brew and it’s their Precision Scale With Timer. That’s the name of the product.

So it’s a scale, it measures weights to a tenth of a gram. Joe Ray : Wow. Michael Calore : So you can see that you have 21.

1 grams of beans or 20. 9 grams of beans, which is completely ridiculous. But it has a timer built in and if you make pour over coffee, you kind of need a timer.

So, that’s my recommendation. Lauren Goode : How much is it? Michael Calore : It was between $50 and $60. Lauren Goode : OK.

And was it worth it? Michael Calore : Oh absolutely. Yeah. A good kitchen scale is like 30 bucks.

So this one was a little bit more expensive. But I think the fact that it’s so sensitive and that it has a timer built in, makes the extra cost worth it. Joe Ray : Yeah.

Michael Calore : I will say if you’re serious about coffee, you probably already have a scale. If you are serious in the kitchen, you probably already have a scale, but when your scale dies— Joe Ray : It’s a sad day. Michael Calore : Yeah, because then you’re just like, oh my god, I have to guess how much water I’m pouring in? What if I pour too much and it runs over? And then it gets all over me.

Yeah, whatever. When your scale dies and you need a new one, consider this one, because it’s awesome. It’s also very fast.

Joe Ray : Is it versatile enough that you can also weigh out flour for bread, for instance? Michael Calore : Yeah. It’s a six-pound scale. Joe Ray : OK.

Michael Calore : So it stops recording after six pounds. So yeah, I used it to make some bread. Joe Ray : OK.

But you could get away with just one scale and that could be your scale. Michael Calore : Yes. Joe Ray : OK.

Michael Calore : Yes. Lauren Goode : Nice. Michael Calore : I think unless you’re cooking things that are more than six pounds.

Joe Ray : Fair. Michael Calore : I have not encountered a recipe that’s more than six pounds. Joe Ray : Whole pumpkin.

Michael Calore : Whole pumpkin. Lauren Goode : This is very unrelated. But I also like the Oxo Brush for washing dishes.

Michael Calore : Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Lauren Goode : They make a good one. Michael Calore : Yeah.

Is it the one that you put the soap inside the brush? Lauren Goode : Yeah. It’s pretty great. Michael Calore : Just phenomenal.

Lauren Goode : They do great stuff. Michael Calore : They really do. Lauren Goode : Yeah.

We’ve written about them in WIRED. Michael Calore : Oh yeah. Lauren Goode : Yeah.

Michael Calore : And this is not spon-con! Lauren Goode : No, it’s not. Michael Calore : We should note that it’s a good company that makes smart stuff. A lot of plastic though.

We don’t need more plastic. Lauren Goode : No, we don’t. But hopefully it’ll last you for a very long time.

Michael Calore : I hope so. Lauren Goode : Hope so. Joe Ray : I second all that.

Lauren Goode : Joe, you need to come back more often. So we can just talk about food for the podcast. Joe Ray : I would do that if I didn’t live so far away.

Lauren Goode : Turn this into the Food Lab. Where do you live? Joe Ray : Seattle. Lauren Goode : That’s not that far.

Joe Ray : It’s not that far, yeah. Lauren Goode : It’s a short flight. Joe Ray : Yeah.

Lauren Goode : I was just there last week. Michael Calore : Yeah. You can bike it in like a week.

Joe Ray : No problem. No problem. Michael Calore : All right.

That’s our show. Thanks again, Joe Ray, for joining us. Joe Ray : It’s such a pleasure to be here.

Thank you. Lauren Goode : It’s so great to have you, Joe. Michael Calore : And thank you all for listening.

If you have feedback, you could find all of us on Twitter. Just check the show notes. Our producer is Boone Ashworth.

We will be back next week. Until then, goodbye. Lauren Goode : And bon appétit.

Michael Calore : Bon appétit. Joe Ray : Bon appétit. [Gadget Lab outro theme music plays].